Another mass-casualty shooting, this time in Southern California. One of the shooters worked with many of those he killed, so "workplace violence", right? Umm, maybe. But he was also of the Muslim faith / political persuasion, had recently traveled to Saudi Arabia to pick up his bride (the second shooter), and started growing a beard upon his return, so "Islamic terrorism", right? Umm, maybe.
There are lots of unanswered questions, but regardless, the call for more gun control will intensify once again. The thing most apparent to me is that, even if the "gun controllers" get the new laws they want, they will still be disappointed.
Those who buy guns legally (with background checks) will still do so. (FYI, the guns the Cali shooters used were all purchased legally.) Those who buy guns without background checks will still do so. Those are the guns that will be used in most crimes, making the owners of those guns criminals. They're already criminals, so to them, what's the big deal breaking one more law?
Let's assume you could require background checks on all gun sales from this point forward, whether from a gun dealer or from an individual, and make it stick (which you can't). There are already somewhere between 200 and 300 MILLION guns floating around out there right now. Who owns those? Have they been background checked? This is reality, folks.
If the gun controllers think they will see any appreciable difference by requiring universal background checks in 6 months, or even 6 years, they are simply being delusional. It will likely take many decades for enough guns to be sold with checks to new, properly vetted owners to see any difference at all.
The reality is this: If there was ever an issue that will cause otherwise fine, upstanding citizens to resort to "civil disobedience", restricting their Second Amendment rights to "keep and bear arms" is it. In their minds, whether you agree or not, the Bill of Rights to our Constitution says it's legal to own guns, and as the Supreme Court has agreed, they wouldn't be breaking any law if they resisted. You can argue until you're blue about the definition of "well armed militia", they won't care.
If you make new laws that in effect outlaw certain types of guns, you've just opened up a whole new field for organized crime to capitalize on. It didn't work with alcohol back in the 1920's and 30's, and it won't work with guns today. Too many people already have them, and too many others want them.
So IMHO even if the gun controllers do get their wish, the effect on the number of future mass shootings will be virtually non-existent. If they want to try, go ahead. They will just be pissing into the wind. Don't expect any miracle results.
Please don't shoot the messenger.
S
Guns/ booze. apples/oranges. If they stopped calling it gun CONTROL and called it tighter gun REGULATIONS people would be a bit less freaked out. Regulations to make it more difficult for nut jobs to get guns and restrictions on guns whose only real purpose is to do mass damage in a short amount of time is a good idea even if it will not stop gun violence,
ReplyDeleteThe argument that gun laws will be ignored by criminals thus don't have any laws is like saying bank robbers will rob banks anyway so why not just make it legal.
Stricter gun regulations will not end what is essentially a cultural problem, but it will reduce some violence. People that can put a square peg in a square opening and don't have "crazy Charles Manson eyes" will still have access to shoot game and targets, and feel a little safer from home intrusion.
Let's do it your way, Joe. President ____ and Congress pass laws that prohibit the sale of AR/AK style "assault rifles", high capacity magazines, etc. "Nut jobs" will be prohibited from buying guns, nor will anyone with "crazy Charles Manson" eyes. They will have a massive bill-signing extravaganza in the Rose Garden with lots of back slapping and made-for-TV-speeches. Cool! Then a few weeks later there will be another mass-casualty shooting, followed by another a week or so later, then another, then.... Nothing will change.
DeleteWhy? Because of the 200-300 MILLION guns already out there, with 10's of millions of them being AR/AK style assault rifles. And of those "nut jobs" who shouldn't have guns....who gets to decide who they are? Your ex wife? Your neighbor already pissed off at you because your dog barks too much? The existing "assault rifles" will still be bought and sold on the quiet (due to the Almighty Dollar profit motive) or more accurately "stolen" and sold. And organized crime will have a whole new product line to add to their drug business. (And we both know how great our anti-drug efforts are going, right?)
My point here was that I don't see how passing a new law or a bunch of new laws is going to make a hill of beans difference. The gun genie is NOT going back in the bottle. The is NO easy answer. There probably is no realistically workable answer, period.
There will continue to be atrocities, but there will also be some that do not happen, but we won't know about them, because they DIDN'T happen. Or, should we just allow any guns to be sold anywhere, on the street, vending machines, in school, at the ball park if more restrictions would be such a bad thing, then there should be no restrictions what so ever.
DeleteWe have laws against speeding, but people speed every day, maybe we should just allow drivers to go what ever speed they want, hell we have accidents now, get rid of speed limits, and while were at it why not drink and drive...drunks do it every day now, apparently the laws don't work.
I am not against guns, I just favor making them more difficult to get into the hands of the wrong people I KNOW BAD PEOPLE WILL STILL GET THEM, maybe not as many bad people will get them. I would also like to see responsible gun owners prove they know what the hell they are doing with their guns, just like people who drive cars, or boats, or planes...might reduce accidents.
So many arguments against stricter regulations act as if the other side are idiots, same old stuff. "Guns don;t kill people....." "Only the criminals will..." Followed by bull shit statistics that counter the other sides bull shit statistics.
I'd love to hear some new ideas.
Good debate Scott. I would just like to see gun owners less paranoid about having their guns taken away...that is not going to happen, very very few people favor that, not in this country.
I agree with just about all you say, Joe. Should guns be sold only through federally registered gun dealers, or by individuals who must also conduct background checks on sellers like the dealers? No complaint from me. Do we need our own personal artillery, and 100 round magazines? Not that I can see. More training for gun owners.. AMEN! I went to a continuing education course just last night. I don't think you can have too much safety/training. Do I fear "them" coming to take my guns? Not at all. It would be physically impossible to go to every household around the country and do that.
DeleteWe differ in that I don't believe any of this will dissuade bad guys from getting guns or from doing evil things. Terrorists won't blink. To criminals, guns are "tools of their trade". To gang bangers, NOT having a gun will result in a very short lifespan back in their hood. Anything I can think of that is likely to be proposed will completely bypass those who need it the most.
An interesting article. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/03/us/how-often-do-mass-shootings-occur-on-average-every-day-records-show.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
ReplyDeleteStop selling ammunition.
ReplyDeleteWho do you know who will be willing to stand up to those who have a vested interest in the gun culture...the NRA, all the gun manufacturers domestically and internationally, those retailers who sell guns and ammo, all the tens of millions of gun owners who will no longer be able to go to the range and shoot, etc? I doubt you'd have anywhere near the number of (paid-off) politicians needed. And then what about all the tens (or hundreds) of BILLIONS of rounds already out there right now? If they couldn't legally sell any more ammo, what do you think that would do to the price of ammo? Don't you think an entirely new criminal enterprise would step in to smuggle ammo across every border, just like they do with drugs now? I think it's a noble idea, Bruce, but it has less of a chance than a snowball surviving in Texas in August.
DeleteStop selling it ? I'll be smelting lead on the balcony by early Spring.... pricing a Reloaded now.
Deleteneed more ammo
ReplyDeleteI'll let you and Bruce / Catalyst (above) duke it out. I'm going to go pop some popcorn.
DeleteYou should send a copy of this to the families of the thousands of kids that are killed by guns each year in the US, let them know that you've decided there is just nothing can be done about it. Just bad luck on their part. Oh, and keep some copies for the families of the thousands of children that will be killed in the years ahead.
ReplyDeleteI guess nihilism has never gone out of style, eh? Glad you let us know it's hopeless, we'll stop wasting our time trying.
Cheers!
Thank you for your most constructive comment yet. If gun controllers can muster the votes to implement a program, I'll anxiously await their results. I will not be in any way inconvenienced. I will wish them sincere good luck, even though I think, as I wrote, they're chasing windmills. As I have repeatedly asked you before, covering many current event topics, offer something....ANYTHING...you think might work.
DeleteOr, we could just lie to those poor victim's families. Just tell them we'll outlaw all guns more powerful than a .22. Then we can all go out without fear forever more. Those hundreds of millions of guns already out there....shhhh. Yeah, that sounds good. Let's just go with that.
DeletePlease, go back and read what I said. You're right, it's hopeless. There is NOTHING that will work,as you've said. I believe you. Why lie to them? Tell them the truth: it's hopeless. The thing that killed their children will kill thousands more, and there is NOTHING to be done, as you've said. I believe you.
DeleteYour words, my friend. Go back and read them.
Cheers.
My apologies, sir. I thought you were just being sarcastic. If there IS something that will work, I'd love to hear about it. But with much smarter people than me thinking about this for years, with nothing new to offer for our considerations, I'm not optimistic.
DeleteI know of no liberals who want to violate the second amendment by taking away everyone's guns, which is what conservatives want you to believe. But assault weapons are another issue. You don't need a device that can kill a hundred people in a few minutes for hunting or protection. The Republicans supported a ban on assault weapons once before. Why not now, unless its because of their fear of the NRA.
ReplyDeleteI suspect you are right, the NRA intimidates a lot of politicians. But my point is that even if they would put an assault gun ban back in place, I don't see it making much if any difference. This country is already up to its eyeballs in guns already.
DeleteThere is nothing that can be done. We need to just give up. As he says....
ReplyDeleteIt pain me to say, I kinda get SFM's point and kinda agree.
DeleteI have no problem with TRYING to do something, but lets just not lead ourselves into thinking that things will be noticeably better any time soon, in yours or my lifetime even. Attitudes change VERY slowly, we know that, and the gun culture is very ingrained in our society. No magic wand is going to make the pro-gun folks give up their firearms in the HOPE that things will be better. Sorry, just being realistic.
DeleteI'm sure we'll also hear the same crap about how if someone had had a gun they could have stopped it, despite that no private citizen has ever stopped a mass shooting with a gun.
ReplyDeleteIf we really want to stop these things, we should let Big Brother loose. Cameras all over, monitoring people's emails, etc. Of course that means becoming a police state but it seems like a solution that would be more successful than the NRA's Old West fantasy.
Honestly, sadly, Pat, I think that's what it's coming to. To get a handle on terrorists we'll have to give up much/most of our civil liberties. Look at what's happening in France....their kneejerk reaction was to suspend many personal liberties in the name of safety. A very slippery slope!
DeleteLow and Slow: per your reply, of course I was being sarcastic....you got it. And Joeh...that's a compliment, sport. I realize it pains you, but as you know, I agree with your a lot of the time. It's just me being me, and you being you. As it ever was, as the saying goes.
ReplyDeleteLow and slow:.....it pains me, because I think you're pretty smart, to see you coming up with these timeworn arguments about the issue. The current prevalence of guns, the problems with changing laws, they've all been covered elsewhere, in great detail, pro and con. And we know I am not giving up, hell I'm only 70, spent two years in combat in Southeast Asia, worse, a career in academia and medicine. That prepares me for any nastiness the NRA has to offer.
You can do better, son.
Cheers.
I look around, SFM, and that's what I see. I'm just being pragmatic. I WISH a lot of things in this country, this world, were different, but I just don't see it. I can't even IMAGINE it. To think that we can have a realistic chance of passing laws that will substantially reduce gun violence seems to me to be a classic example of "windmill chasing".
DeleteCall me Don Q.
DeleteTake care,
Mike
Ha! Charge, Don Q. :)
DeleteIt doesn't really pain me Mike. Just a rare occasion. There is probably other stuff we agree on, like the best fly fishing is when they hit a dry fly, not those emergers and woolly bugger stuff.
DeleteSo...let's say that stricter gun law won't make a dent in the guns owned by hardened, organized criminals and terrorists. But let's say that Bobby Joe down the street who's been arrested a few times because he likes to slap the wife around when he's been drinking...let's say he won't be able to get a gun. Sure, he still can get a knife, but his wife is a pretty good runner and while she couldn't outrun a gun, she could outrun a knife that one day when he got really angry.
ReplyDeleteThink his wife would say that the stricter gun laws worked?
But right now, Bobby Joe couldn't pass a background check because of his past history of spousal abuse. That is specifically one of those disqualifying things mentioned that will get him rejected. How can a new law be any more strict than REJECTED! So he will just go down to the pool hall or behind the liquor store and make a deal with some low life to get him a gun for cash, no questions asked, laws be damned. Wanna pass a new law? Go ahead, but just don't expect any miraculous difference.
DeleteSo instead should we pass laws that make it easy for him to get a gun??? Damn, low and slow, this is a bad argument for this circumstance. Perhaps he'll try to get a gun legally, rejected, come to someone's in a LEO, and is prevented from killing his wife? Ain't that worth a shot instead of just telling the woman she's just fucked? Christ all friday, don't discourage people from trying. Apathy, the feeling that we can't do anything, is really bad for those that aren't like you: have guns, money and can protect themselves.
DeleteMike, we're like two ships passing in the night....I have no problem with passing new laws that will "prevent" Bobby Joe from buying a gun. But what I'm saying is that laws ALREADY EXIST that ON PAPER prevent him from getting his gun, and that hasn't stopped him. Bobby apparently can't read, nor can the scum bags behind the liquor store who have a thriving business selling stolen untraceable guns to legally ineligible gun buyers. Words on a piece of paper WITHOUT ENFORCEMENT are meaningless. So you want to pass a new law? Go ahead, but don't hold your breath that you'll see any meaningful reversal in the crime rate. Just passing another law and patting yourself on the back isn't going to make Bobby Joe's wife any safer.
DeleteI'll make a new post later today and let you in on the only thing I've heard of so far that worked....actually got guns and bad guys off the streets, and why it was later abandoned.
Germany has VERY strict gun laws/regulations yet we have stll had our share of amok shootings.....sad, but true.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I hate guns
What's the answer? HOW are we (we, as in humanity) going to stop all this slaughter world wide? Mass Shootings here, Paris attacks there..... You all know there's no answers right? You all realize there is no way to stop this runaway train that humanity is on right now? Look to the past - find me a window of absolute peace and harmony.... This is the Human Story - we can only watch it play out.
ReplyDelete